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This week on The Bit, we’re joined by John Wu, the President of Ava Labs, to discuss Ava Labs’ Avalanche blockchain network and how it fits into the rapidly evolving crypto and DeFi ecosystem. Avalanche’s native token, AVAX, was recently listed on Bittrex Global. 

Here are the show notes:

[01:23] Down the Rabbit Hole

[06:39] The Ava Labs Vision

[12:55] DeFi’s Mainstream Moment

[18:26] The Institutional Rush

[26:59] Projecting Ahead

Stephen: Hi, welcome to The Bit, the Bittrex Global podcast, where we give you the inside scoop on all things crypto. I’m Stephen Stonberg, the CEO of Bittrex Global. 

When most people think of cryptocurrency, their mind immediately goes to Bitcoin. But there’s a lot more to this space than any one single asset. The crypto ecosystem is constantly evolving and experimenting, and adapting to new trends and new ideas. We’ve seen this play out more times than we can count over the last year alone, with concepts and trends like DeFi, NFTs, and tokenization taking the industry by storm and pulling crypto even further into the future. 

Ava Labs is one perfect example of the exciting innovation happening in the crypto space. Creator of the Avalanche network, Ava Labs has been on the receiving end of some huge investments from big name VCs like Andreessen Horowitz and Polychain Capital

So to help us get a better grip on Ava Labs and their mission to bridge the gap between DeFi and traditional finance, I’m speaking today with the President of Ava Labs, John Wu, who brings with him to the crypto space over 20 years of experience as an executive in some of the most exciting FinTech firms. So John, welcome to The Bit; excited to be chatting with you today. 

John: Stephen, likewise. Very excited to be talking with you. And it’s a beautiful summer day, so I can’t wait to learn and share with you. 

[01:23] Down the Rabbit Hole

Stephen: Anyway, I think as we discussed right before the podcast, we’re probably the only two dinosaurs from HBS in the crypto space, so that’s pretty cool. So you’re finding two old-world people…and this is all the stuff they definitely did not teach you at Harvard Business School, the crypto industry. 

So it’d be interesting to sort of hear both of our takes on this. So anyway, I’m really looking forward to discussing some of the trends shaping the broader crypto space and where Avalanche fits into the equation. 

But before we dig into that, I always ask guests this question, and I wanted to ask you, John, as a fellow HBSer, who or what got you into crypto in the first place? How did you hear about it? When did this happen? It was definitely not in Harvard Business School or former HBS classmates; how and when did you buy your first Bitcoin? 

John: Well, actually, if you talk to some of our classmates, when I got into it, they probably would have looked at you as if you had three or four eyes all at the same time and wondered, “what are you doing?”

Stephen: You’re like a criminal on Silk Road…

John: I mean, ironically, I was the same way to be fair; I made my first investment in Bitcoin in 2014 after the Mt. Gox incident and when the Bitcoin prices came down. My background was a traditional finance person similar to yourself. I was on the buy-side of some well-known funds as a tech investor. 

So I was always looking for a new emerging technology. That’s what excited me, that’s what I was passionate about, and I like to find those before any inflection in the underlying industry. So right after undergrad, I started at Tiger; Tiger Management is a great place to learn from some of the best people. And then, as you noted, I went to Harvard Business School. 

Afterward, I worked for a great man, Mark Keenan, at Keenan Capital, where I ran the largest tech portfolio there. And ultimately, I started my own fund. I wanted to be an entrepreneur, and I was seated and sponsored by the Blackstone Group

Stephen: So you were CIO, you were Chief Investment Officer, you were actually making investment decisions. So you were already an investor. And then obviously then just moving into Bitcoin. I did a stint on the buy-side as well, but I was in business development. I wasn’t CIO. 

So that’s interesting. You come from a traditional investing background, and it’s interesting how we’re seeing a lot of those guys, including my old boss, Alan Howard. I worked at Brevan Howard, and we’re seeing Tudor Jones; everyone’s out piling into crypto in 2021. But I don’t know how many of them were actually making investments back in 2014. So that’s pretty OG crypto.

John: The answer is none of them, and in fact, I personally was skeptical of the whole thing. Trying to figure out the use case, what was the utility, and I tried to figure out a DCF on this whole thing called Bitcoin. It was basically impossible. And what really got me was that I realized I should treat this more like a currency or a commodity, and there’s a supply curve. 

And you could, at the time, figure out the incremental Bitcoin mine per day times the price, which is in the few hundreds, and then figure out that the incremental supply per day was literally like a million dollars at the time. 

And on the demand side, if you were just tracking the addresses on the wallets and some of the exchanges, you realize, whoa, I’ll make some assumptions how big each one of these wallets are. Still, there’s far more demand, incremental demand, than a million dollars in incremental supply every day. So, I had no idea where it would go, but I knew that the demand was overwhelming the supply, and it would be a good investment. 

Stephen: So, like a good trader, you looked at the markets. That’s technical analysis. The technicals were telling you this has to go up. And then the hard part about Bitcoin back then, the operational risks, like how do you buy that? It wasn’t so easy. There was no, like, download a mobile app and just buy it from your bank. 

John: You’re absolutely correct. So, the first thing was I could not buy it for my fund. Back then, there were no qualified custodians; if you had a fund greater than $150 million, you had to house your investments in a qualified custodian. You had to report certain things, but there was nothing available for you to report. 

Typically, normal security is so easy; your trader enters it into an old mess. Then all of a sudden goes into Geneva; the accounting system goes to Goldman, the prime broker, or wherever, and all of a sudden, it’s all there for you so you can do proper accounting. 

Stephen: It’s a square peg/round hole; you’d have to go back and change the investment guidelines of the fund. 

Do you think that’s why the hedge funds are now able to buy it because they haven’t had to change their investment guidelines? Because it’s more institutionalized, it fits within their rules, and they can just make allocations without having to go back to their investor. 

John: I think people met halfway. So since then, qualified custodians are a real thing. Real accounting has been capable, and my LPs would have fired me because I wouldn’t be providing my fiduciary responsibility, their opinion back then, and that’s all changed, too. 

So it’s a combination of better infrastructure, as well as maybe some of the fund managers have changed their mandate in order to be wider in terms of what they can invest. So I think it’s a combination of all of those things. 

[06:39] The Ava Labs Vision

Stephen: So give us some more background on Avalanche and Ava Labs, and that’s your next big move, and describe the sort of vision or niche the network is trying to fill and how you got involved there.

John: Absolutely. I was trying to solve a problem for myself. As a professional investor at some of those large funds, I was able to get access and had easy discovery of prices and hard-to-find securities. All of a sudden, I’m trying to invest in them for myself. We went through how hard it was to invest in an institution for crypto, but private shares…it was almost impossible for individuals to invest in these private shares. 

So I went on this mission to try to tokenize hard-to-find assets, whether it’s private shares, real estate, or whatever. But to your next point, I also realized that there are $700 trillion of assets on global banks and enterprises in terms of financial assets. 

For you to properly digitize or tokenize those assets, make them liquid, allowing them to exchange, you need a far more scalable platform than existed at that time. And that’s where Ava Labs, the team behind Avalanche, comes in. 

So Ava Labs was founded out of Cornell University. My undergrad professor there, Emin Gun Sirer, a distributed systems professor, and his Ph.D. students wanted to solve some of those scale, low latency, and pricing capacity issues that he saw. Eventually, we’ll hit some of the other layer ones, and let’s just say we went out and raised money from some top-name VCs, and ultimately that is what the benefit and the beauty of Avalanche is. 

Think of it as Ethereum compatible, but it has certain features like scale, low price, and speed that doesn’t exist right now on some of these other layer ones, and the fact that we are so focused on creating digitization of assets makes us uniquely positioned to both do it for the decentralized, permissionless world, as well as we have a functionality capability called a subnet, which is, think of it as a private blockchain that allows banks and funds and other regulated entities to create a sub-network that sits on top of the permissionless, but the subnetwork is a private blockchain with your own set of validators. 

So you can solve those geographic problems you talked about. If an asset wants to go outside of a certain geography, the validator set can be controlled by the consortium of the bank so that you can adjust appropriately for that. So back in the day, the compliance was done simply at the smart contract level, simple blacklist, whitelist KYC/AML. 

But now, Avalanche is the cape that allows its user to tokenize and control some of the governance at the network layer through the staking validator area. So that will enable it to be more flexible. That gives the enterprise enough control that they feel like they can be compliant. 

Stephen: So just to translate that, especially for the kids at HBS who don’t know anything about crypto and don’t learn anything. So what I’m hearing, and I always like to make this user-friendly for the beginners in crypto. So Ethereum, which everyone’s heard of, is a blockchain, and its use case was to create tokens; it’s now become an asset in itself. 

It wasn’t designed to have speculative value like Bitcoin. But at its core, most tokens are on ERC-20, and there’s a new version of it coming out. But my understanding is that Avalanche is a better version of that, specifically for the things you’ve described, like the next wave of real-world securities, not utility tokens. 

So these are smart contracts. So you’ve built a better mousetrap within the crypto world that’s better suited for the upcoming real-world applications, old-world assets going onto the blockchain. Is that a fair summary of what you’re trying to do? 

John: That’s very eloquent. So it’s almost like ETH 2.0 functionality with compliance and private blockchain capabilities, so we can play in both the playground of permissionless DeFi as well as traditional assets and tokenizing them. 

Stephen: So we always like to do our research on this show and learn more about the different projects and guests involved. So we noticed that Avalanche does have two upgrades in the pipeline: Apricot and Blueberry, which are great names and sound very user-friendly and delicious. 

What will these upgrades address? And how did the team arrive at these names? Like ETH 2.0, those are very difficult; those are kind of more fun.

John: Well, I thought when you’re going to name things, it might as well be consistent and stay within a genre. So fruit is really nice and tasty, as you said. And each one of these upgrades makes the Avalanche protocol even more tasty, I guess, to the user. 

So I think that’s how those came about. But some of the functionality you will see, I’ll just start with the first one that I can’t wait to see come out, which is dynamic fees. So right now, the fee structure is already very low. 

Whereas in Ethereum, when it was full capacity in May and June, sometimes for a $10 NFT, you got charged $80. But at Avalanche, it was under $1.50, depending on the CPU requirements. 

Going forward, there’s some of the functionality, and these upgrades will allow you to have even lower fees, fewer dynamic fee functions. On top of that, there are other related upgrades constantly improving the feature set. 

I mean, I think the way to think about it would be like you wake up and all of a sudden your iPhone says, “Can we update your software at night?” And each time, there are better improvements, hopefully, with Apple at least. But with us, I know these improvements are coming. And yes, those are two things that are coming up shortly.

[12:55] DeFi’s Mainstream Moment

Stephen: So Avalanche is right at the forefront of bridging together and linking the exciting new DeFi space with the traditional financial world. And I know that there are even plans to bring Forex trading to the Avalanche network. 

So what do you make of the DeFi space? What needs to happen to bring DeFi even further into the mainstream? And tell us a bit about how the Forex traders and the big banks feel about your next foray?

John: So for the DeFi world, first of all, I think the first thing that needs to be mentioned is you started out earlier saying, actually maybe it was in the greenroom, so to speak, where the summer of the trading is low in crypto in general, etc. and prices have been reflected by the volume or volumes reflecting prices, one way or the other. 

Interestingly, even though total value in the DeFi ecosystem has been coming down with prices, if you track the wallets and addresses in the DeFi community, it’s growing. It may not be growing at the same rate; the slope may be different, but it is growing, so users and DeFi are actually increasing even in a very down market. So that needs to be mentioned here. 

So going back to what we were talking about before, the value that people see is now starting to be clear to many participants in the market where perhaps in ‘16 and ‘17, it was not there. So DeFi is growing in terms of number of users and transactions, even though pricing is down as an ecosystem. 

What it really needs, though, to really lift off and take it to the next level, unfortunately, you’re not going to like this, but I think you do need some regulation, and you need some more clarity in terms of what is really compliant and what is not compliant.

Stephen: We’re very focused on regulation. If you’re in financial services, I tell people just because the trade settles on the blockchain; the rules are there. It’s not just DeFi, some of our exchange competitors, who shall remain nameless when they have regulators coming after them; their comment is, “Well, we’re decentralized, we don’t operate anywhere.” 

That’s like if a criminal robbed a bank and said, “Oh, I’m decentralizing,” you still… it doesn’t work that way. It’s a nice try. I see how that works out. But I think it’d be fine as a bit of the same just because it’s peer-to-peer. 

There’s this concept of form over substance. Just because we say it’s peer-to-peer or we’re decentralized. That’s like the catch-all phrase in this industry. It cracks me upcoming from the real financial world. Those regulators don’t care that the trades are on the blockchain. It’s just financial services. So I agree with your comments, and it’ll be interesting to see how this plays out. 

So we touched on this before, briefly, but in some of your other interview appearances, you’ve been asked about Avalanche’s relationship to Ethereum and whether you guys are the new ETH killer. 

But for our audience, can you explain how Avalanche compares to Ethereum? What, if anything, does the Ethereum 2.0 rollout mean for your strategy down the road. And I know our audience can’t see you on video, but I know you’re definitely not in Paris this week at the Ethereum conference.

John: Members of my team are there, but I’m here talking to you, so it’s just as much fun; I’d say in terms of the whole ETH killer comment, I think that’s asked of every first layer protocol. Frankly, internally I can tell you we don’t think of ourselves as hard competitors of Ethereum. We feel like we complement them because we provide certain features and functionality that they don’t right now. 

So we’re happy to take excess capacity, as it has happened during the DeFi boom. And I think the other thing that I need to mention here is that two or three years out, maybe even shorter, all of these first layer protocols, including Avalanche, will enter a world where it’s more like the current social media world. 

Maybe there will be a Facebook that is winner take most, but no longer winner take all. You’re still going to have Snapchat, you’re still going to have TikTok, you’re still going to have Clubhouse. 

And there’ll be specialization. Different things will focus on NFTs, while others will be focused on specific areas of financial assets. This is because the intricacies and subtleties required to transact and provide functionality and a good user experience will only become more sophisticated.

Going forward, the world of crypto will have to go more from just “providing some functionality; go figure out how to do it” to “providing functionality; I want to give you a good experience of doing it as well.”

[18:26] The Institutional Rush

Stephen: Great. So we’ve seen a lot of institutional interest over this past year, like convergence and just all the hedge funds, everyone’s piling into the space, as we mentioned. 

And the activity is even taking place during the market stagnation. In fact, the institutions are not sellers, which is interesting; they’re buying on the dips. Whereas in 2017, the few that were in would have all dumped. 

And I think it’s important to note it’s not just hedge funds entering the space. We hear all the press about the macro funds that are all, not just long the assets, but they’re buying stakes in a lot of the players. 

But we’re seeing boring pension plans and endowments. I mean, they’re the most boring and, coming from the hedge fund side, they never want to do anything like hedge funds, let alone crypto, and now they’re coming in. 

So what do you make of all this interest? And how will this shape the whole space moving forward?

John: Well, the first thing to note when you’re dealing with pensions and some of these endowments, especially the ones that were related to where you went to school, are large dollar amounts. So it is only good for the industry when you have this amount of capital that potentially will enter the space. That’s the high level. 

I think that part of why more sophisticated or larger entities are entering the space is because it was always thought of as speculative and unsavory. I think we’ve turned the corner across the Rubicon in the sense that people now see the beginning of utility in this space. 

Whether it be the early days of DeFi we’re seeing now, or NFTs transferring the rights of ownership to a digital as opposed to a physical form, or even enterprises using private blockchains and creating their own mechanisms around it. 

And you’re actually seeing now early days, replicas of social media companies, replicas of eCommerce companies that are taking advantage of some of the benefits of blockchain and crypto. 

They’re not there yet, but I think in general, why these institutions are crossing the chasm is because they actually are beginning to say, “whoa, maybe there is utility, and we need to get behind the right players who are going to make our lives, ultimately, even easier.”

Stephen: I agree. There’s definitely proof of concept, and now some of these things have really taken off. So there’s interest in the space for its own right. 

But there’s also an element like the traditional financial world; you can’t ignore the news. We have inflation or hyperinflation like we live in the Weimar Republic. Do you think that’s factoring in as well? Or is it just the use case alone?

John: Absolutely. I think that was the first use case; Bitcoin was digital gold, and that was the first use case. And when people realize that Bitcoin has been around for 10, 12 years, and there’s enough trust in the system, and there’s enough liquidity in size, these larger funds were able to say, “I need to start taking a look at it.” 

In fact, it’s actually even better than that because the underlying people behind the funds drove it. I mean, sure, there were companies like Tesla and MicroStrategy who put it on their balance sheet, like big believers. Individuals are big believers, but they had the enablers. PayPal, they’re making it easy. Square makes it easy for people to buy and sell. 

Obviously, Coinbase is almost a pure plan instead of a crossover play, like PayPal or Square. But they’re all doing this because it’s driven by demand at the consumer level. 

So institutions coming over through whatever medium they’re doing, it all eventually led up to from these voices, if you will, of the individuals who saw a need for them personally. And now, the big banks, big enterprises, asset managers are saying, “Hey, if our clients want it, we should be participating as well.”

Stephen: I agree with all that. You’ve already touched on my next question: the institutions’ move to crypto, which is great. So I agree with everything you said. 

I think my take on it was that it was happening anyway, like the unfortunate situation with COVID, and all this sort of central bank printing has just accelerated it, kind of like pouring gasoline on a fire that was already burning. I think it just made it go a lot more quickly.

John: I’m just shocked by the amount of money printing we are seeing. We’re just going to hand over a big pile of problems and debt to our kids and their kids. Someone at the end of the day will have to pay for this.

Stephen: Not if your kids are holding Bitcoin. The smart money is voting with its feet. Actually, the macro traders, of all people, know what’s going on, and they get it. 

So they’re like the canary in the coal mine. They’re getting out of fiat currency and moving quickly into crypto because for them it’s a hedge.

John: This is the only asset class where I saw the retail person have an edge on the big institutions. It was the retail guy who got in first before Paul Tudor Jones, before your friend Alan Howard, before Stan Druckenmiller decided that this was a good inflation hedge and asset class that they should be partaking in.

Stephen: I’d like to also point out that some of the crypto billionaires now make these guys look poor. I mean, who cares? It took them 30 years to get like a billion or 2 billion, like your old boss. Because first, the bankers became the rich ones, then the hedge funds made the bankers look poor. 

And now, Sam Bankman-Fried, he makes them all look poor. He lives on a futon. He’s 28. He is like 10x all of these guys combined. It’s fabulous. I love the disruption of the whole thing.

John: That’s a whole different conversation. But yes. I mean, we saw this once before during the internet boom. You need to work.

Stephen: Exactly. This is financial services, though. It’s not like Mark Zuckerberg compared to them. It’s like apples and oranges. This is a guy eating their lunch in their industry. Who is this? 

I have a lot of respect for the hedge fund guys; they’re incredibly smart. But it’s just amazing what this guy did in three years. It took them 30 years, and it’s unbelievable. But I think it shows you the disruptive power of blockchain. 

So moving along with the next question. The last several weeks have been pretty interesting, or frustrating, following from a markets perspective. There were huge gains and record after record, and then we saw complete market bloodbath around the middle of May. A lot of leveraged trading, weeks of slow recovery, and stagnation. 

How do you see the current blockchain and crypto market right now? We’ve been through the DeFi summer last year and then an institutional bull market. Do you think we’re in a bear market now? What’s your market view as a trader, especially?

John: So, there’s a summer effect, and there’s a post-COVID effect. So the fact that volumes and interest in crypto assets are low is not unique to crypto; if you look at brokerage firms, whether online brokerage firms, whether it be Robinhood or Schwab, they’ve all seen a volume downtick similar to that of crypto. So it’s not necessarily a pure function of crypto; it is a function.

Stephen: It’s market fatigue, in general.

John: There’s a lot of market fatigue, and we’re all opening as we talked about earlier. Maybe in October, when people come back inside, they will have more interest. 

But the consumer still has a lot of money to spend, partially from the printing done by various central banks around the world. This is part of why the CPI number was so high just a week ago. They are now buying more traditional stuff and going outside; we’ve all been cooped up for too long, we want to be outside, and they’re using their purchasing in a different way. 

So I think that’s a big part of this. In fairness, we also had a big event in May, and there was a lot of hype built up to that IPO, so I think there was a lot of leverage built into the system, so we need to unwind that as well. So that’s a natural unwinding of a big event, but also I think, more importantly, it’s people are voting with their dollars to do other things for now, because they’ve been cooped up inside for a long time, and it’s not just with crypto, it’s also with other asset classes.

[26:59] Projecting Ahead

Stephen: I think projecting ahead in the crypto space, let alone markets, but crypto markets is very hard to do. Things move so fast. I always joke to people that it’s dog years. Four years of crypto is worth 20. And you certainly age that much. 

But what are the short-term visions and long-term visions you have for Avalanche, and what makes you guys stand apart from the crowd?

John: So first, the dog years thing. I think when I first entered the workforce in the hedge fund world, it was the same concept. It seemed like you work so much harder than someone else in a traditional mutual fund or something, and it was a dog years’ worth of work. So I think that just like every new industry, it requires a lot of heavy lifting initially.

So this analog, the dog years, will be perpetual; it’s just the new industry all the time. But at Avalanche, we at Ava Labs are very excited about many technology upgrades and innovations. We just talked about some of that on the Business Development Fund is also very exciting because we’ve grown very organically because our technology is so innovative. 

A lot of the developers and the assets that came over to Avalanche did it without incentives or discounts or mechanisms that have been used by other first layers. We’ve been very focused on just making the technology better and better and better. 

We have now over 230 Dapps building on Avalanche; about 75 of those are live. So many of the Lego pieces for DeFi, including infrastructure and tooling, the functionality of certain services and products, are now there. When that is all in place, we thought it would be a better time to probably come out with some incentive programs or things so that when people want to cross that bridge and have real use cases, instead of an earlier place in time. 

So I think we’re excited about the future of Biz Dev as well as the enterprises. A lot of work has already been done. I just can’t name the names for a lot of them right now.

Stephen: So we’ll watch your Twitter for announcements.

John: Yes, definitely; please do. I’m excited to just name the names in a very short period of time as we continue to build a pipeline there. 

So tech, Biz Dev, as well as enterprise deals; all very exciting. We don’t know exactly what to call it because it’s going to go into the fall. So you can’t say summer of Avalanche. But it’s a big period for us.

Stephen: Great. Well, we’re super looking forward to it. And again, we’ve only heard great things about the project and great things to look forward to. 

So just to wrap things up, I’d love to ask the last question. We’ve talked a lot about all the amazing things that Ava Labs is doing, but I’d love to hear about any other projects or blockchains or cryptocurrencies or really anything else that you, especially with your trading background, are interested in. 

What are you watching outside of your own sort of “cooking?” What do you think the audience should be paying attention to, as well?

John: So, the obvious one is that we see many great entrepreneurs receiving ecosystem funding or grants. 

Those projects that are coming to develop on top of Avalanche; some of them are really incredible. If you think of DeFi right now, you think about replacing existing products and services, just doing it more P2P, more efficient, maybe a little slower, but it allows individuals to participate and get higher yield or some nature of that respect. Still, some of the new products and new gaps that we’re seeing, they’re creating things that don’t exist in the traditional finance world because it’s not possible to have it if you don’t have the instant finality and where the settlement and payment is at the same time.

So we’re, you know, we’re in the traditional world, I’m not sure we really have a true payment system, we really have more of a credit system, even in equities, it’s t plus two. So that’s what I would ask everyone on this podcast to look at, which is look at some of the Dapps that are going to be developing in the near term on top of Avalanche, and you’ll see some innovation there from great entrepreneurs that’s actually not copying existing services and products.

Stephen: I totally agree. I always like to make…because I’m old and I was at HBS when the internet came out. The cool kids had already dropped out and gone to work for Yahoo, which was the big one. But I think that what the internet did was change the way these financial services companies could interact with their clients, but the back office has been untouched since Bretton Woods. 

I mean, they’ve just been putting tape and glue on it. They have no incentive; they charge a lot of money. And so blockchain is like the Amazon moment that happened to retail for financial services because it’s a parallel. 24/7, better, cheaper settlement system for everything. So SWIFT, ACA, all these horrible things that…JP Morgan’s internal thing, they charge you 3% for the privilege of waiting three days to send US dollars. It’s insane. 

So I think that this is as disruptive as the internet was, but again, it couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of people: the banks and sort of the boring financial institutions. 

John: That’s right. And I’ll add one more thing. To see and track these things, not only watch projects launching on Avalanche, but you guys have close to 900 pairs out there, and you guys have done a great job of vetting and also listing some of these great projects. So to watch your platform is very important as well.

Stephen: Well, thank you for the plug. We appreciate it on our own podcast. But yes, I’ve been betrayed. I think that’s also why you probably chose to list with us. Unlike a lot of other exchanges, I think our founders have always been big proponents of blockchain. They do this because they love it. 

It’s not about the money. Of course, that comes in if you like what you’re doing and you do it well, like anything, but they’re big proponents of the ecosystem and have supported a lot of projects, and we continue to do that. That’s also why we went to Liechtenstein. We have the Blockchain Act, total clarity, and we have 300 altcoins listed with 900 pairs. So we hope to keep doing that and supporting the community. 

So thanks so much for coming on and telling us all about Ava Labs. We learned quite a bit about all the different projects your team is working on, so definitely looking forward to hearing more great news from you in the future and watching your token and some of the other projects using your protocol. 

John: Stephen, I had a lot of fun. Thank you. 

Thanks for listening to The Bit, the Bittrex Global podcast. Our guest today was John Wu, the President of Ava Labs. To learn more about Ava Labs, visit That’s A-V-A-L-A-B-S dot org. To learn more about Bittrex Global, visit

And please make sure to subscribe to our podcast. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening and for making The Bit one of the fastest-growing podcasts in the world of crypto. I’m Stephen Stonberg, the CEO of Bittrex Global.